The Lore – Ideas, Theories and Story detail discussion

[mortal Offline]

Heck, I’d even support the idea of taking the given lore & in turn toss the playerbase the tools to shape it through gameplay as well. For example, host some type of server event(?) where we have to take down a massive coup that has managed to infiltrate the Theocracy, ultimately introducing ways for us to control the outcome of the event & that sabbath’s future, expanding the lore through direct involvement rather than a couple of forum posts & dev input (which I am thrilled to see).

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Sit down fledgling and I shall tell you what you need to know about how our kind started, just what you need to know, no more no less, because to much information can be harmful to your young mind.

Long ago before written records, before Egypt and Rome, The Human tribes worships two beings , one of fire and one of light. The tribes that worships one would fight the others. Out of these tribes came seven  people with power, these men and women could control nature and its elements. They united the tribes and defeated the beings.  This would have been the end , but like all humans they craved even more power, so they drank the blood of these beings and were cursed and blessed. The beings  made it so that light would burn them, and fire would be their doom. They also became immortals, super strength and speed, but each had his and her own special gifts and curses. Their names and gifts have been forgotten but  we do know that they turned some of their trusted followers. These followers that were turned had a thirst for blood unlike their makers for this was part of the curse. After a while the kindreds numbers grew and spread throughout the world but eventually the  children turned on there parents and destroyed them . Two of the seven were consumed by their children that a act of the such today is called dissipare in Italian it means to consume, because that is what you do you not only drink the blood but you consume their minds soul and power. This is a vile act and  some case means your death. Their are some that live this way but once you taste another kindreds blood you will always have a craving and if you do it enough thats all you can have to survive

[mortal Offline]

How long have vampires existed in Dogma lore? could one say they have been around since about the times of Babylon?

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Malkev wrote:

How long have vampires existed in Dogma lore? could one say they have been around since about the times of Babylon?

Well that is kind of up for establishment, but they have certainly been around since the middle ages in this universe.

[mortal Offline]

I’d be in favor of leaving the final answer  – to the question of vampiric origins – nebulous, but still very important in terms of current conditions.  To whit, what if the initial split among the undead that eventually lead to the Sabbaths was a doctrinal disagreement over the origin story?

“We evolved alongside humans, and have been here from the beginning!”

“You heretical fool, we are obviously the chosen handmaidens and servants of the ancient Egyptian gods..”

“No, we are obviously the hungry ghosts of the Far East and India…”

“You are all smoking something, there is no archaeological evidence that goes back further than 1154 a.d…”

“Who cares where we came from, just gimmie the blood! Live in the moment!”

 

[mortal Offline]

Eroszabi wrote:

Sit down fledgling and I shall tell you what you need to know about how our kind started, just what you need to know, no more no less, because to much information can be harmful to your young mind. Long ago before written records, before Egypt and Rome, The Human tribes worships two beings , one of fire and one of light. The tribes that worships one would fight the others. Out of these tribes came seven people with power, these men and women could control nature and its elements. They united the tribes and defeated the beings. This would have been the end , but like all humans they craved even more power, so they drank the blood of these beings and were cursed and blessed. The beings made it so that light would burn them, and fire would be their doom. They also became immortals, super strength and speed, but each had his and her own special gifts and curses. Their names and gifts have been forgotten but we do know that they turned some of their trusted followers. These followers that were turned had a thirst for blood unlike their makers for this was part of the curse. After a while the kindreds numbers grew and spread throughout the world but eventually the children turned on there parents and destroyed them . Two of the seven were consumed by their children that a act of the such today is called dissipare in Italian it means to consume, because that is what you do you not only drink the blood but you consume their minds soul and power. This is a vile act and some case means your death. Their are some that live this way but once you taste another kindreds blood you will always have a craving and if you do it enough thats all you can have to survive

If you wouldn’t mind, this brought me an idea.

“Sit down fledglin’ and I shall tell ya wah ya need ta know about how our kind started. Juss wah ya need ta know, no more no less, because too much information can be ‘armful ta yah young mind. Long ago before Egypt and Rome, Di Humans tribes worshipped two loas, one of fiah and one of lite. Di tribes dat worshipped one been fightin’ di oddah. Out of dees tribes came seven wise men and women of powah. Dees men and women could control nature and di elements. Dey united di tribes and defeated di loas. Dis would ‘ave been di end, but like all men dey been cravin’ more powah. So dey drank di blood of di loas and been blessed and cursed. Dey became immortal and gained great strength and speed and each had oddah gift of der own and dat would be der blessin’. But di loas made it so dat lite would burn dem and fiah would be der doom. Dat would be der curse. Dey ‘ad trusted followahs dey turned ta wah dey been, but di followahs had a thirst for blood unlike der makers for dis was part of di curse. In time di kindred grew in numbahs and spread throu’out di world and turned ‘gainss der makers. Two of dem been consumed by der progeny. Di act be called “dissipare” by di Valenti’s because in italian it means “ta consume”. It is wah ya do when ya not only drink di blood but also consume di soul and powahs of anuddah kindred. Dis be act most vile and di punishment for it be death. Der are some who live dis way, but once ya taste annudah’s kindred blood ya be always cravin’ for more and if ya do it enough, it be all you can ‘ave ta survive.”

– Mama Latoya, Voodoo Queen of Orleans’ servitures  

 I thought the concept of ancient tribesmen would suit african origins and their traditions, which lead me to voodoo and calling “the beings” loas. From there also comes to choice of accent ( which I hope to have imitated well enough. ) A suitable representative who could also adress a younger vampire as a fledgling would be likely an older and higher positioned vampire. Mama Latoya falls under Hort Packs as the whole faction is a mashup of all kinds of freeminded and alternative thinking vampires not under any other Sabbath. Orleans’ servitures could be a clan that started in New Orleans and spread into other cities as well so it doesn’t mean Mama Latoya is necessarily from there, but she could be leading a group in another city. I wanted to respect Erozsabi’s use of the word “dissipare” but it being of italian origin I had to assign it to someone else like the Valentini’s as italian doesn’t really have roots in voodoo tradition. Most of voodoo practioners come from Louisiana or Haiti and those originated from French slaves brought to America. However Valentini’s could be an old family dating back to middle ages who established themselves within the Aristocracy of Domini. There we have further application of the Dogma universe in the story. I may add more background to this later. It certainly is a great example of how diverse the beliefs of the orgin amongst the kindred can be.

[mortal Offline]

An idea for the Aristocracy of Domini. As far as the human and vampire cultures go back together, there has always been one thing desired by both, power. One aspect of power is that of rule over the others. Only the mightiest and the most excellent of vampires managed to reign in those ancient times and they could be gods to mortals. God kings and god queens to obedient nations. In times when they needed not to hide their nature, their rule was supreme and unchallenged. The immortals would wage wars with each other in pursuit for supremacy. Time changes things however and even kings can be overthrowned. Back then their numbers were still modest and they recognised the threat in people to be greater than they thought. They would unite to create a first civilsation of their kind, where they could maintain their way of unliving without hiding their nature from mortals. There they again would be supreme and safe in numbers.

However, hunger for power is always strong and to some the pursuit for it is more than peace. Through intrigues and opened conflicts the civilisation would shatter and the vampires would then spread and form their own territories once more. But this time they would have followers. The vampire kind would however take their past lesson to the heart and would no longer openly stand in the light of revelation before mortals. Rather than that they would pull the strings from behind the curtain and rule in secrecy. One’s domain would still be significant and major or minor conflicts would arise. In such conflicts even mighty vampire may perish and it would be up to his progeny to continue. Power was then inherrited and held in the hands of mighty. Tradition and customs of the vampire society were solid and unquestionable and one vampire’s prestige was determined by their lineage. A concept that hardly allowed rise in the ranks of vampiric society. But there was always a way wether by valorous or sinister deeds or through subtle intrigues.

Evolution of the mankind brought new threats to the immortals and that created a need to form unions and councils. Leading factions and figures would devise plots and solutions to adapt and survive in the world of mortals rising in numbers and power. Old traditions and customs that were naturally upheld by the majority as  means to survive were formed into a strict code among the vampires. A code known as Dogma. Those to abort and disobey would be removed. Extreme caution to this would be given in medieval times and due to inquisition activites and infamous Witch Hunts. A union was never easy to maintain among the vampire kind and the society still remained divided. There were many freeminded vampires who wanted to go their own ways or factions that were thinking differently. Some of those were intolerable as they posed threat to the vampires’ existence. More wars and more bloodshed. Nobility and influential family clans formed allegiances and fragile pacts of peace in order to dispose of the threat. Such conflict could never be truly resolved and continues in one way or another until the present times.

A major change comes into societies of both mortals and immortals in the Industrial Revolution that greatly hinders the significance of nobility. Middle class comes to earn its prime and rightful place in the game for power. Those formerly in power would not give up easily however. The time would come to form a vast faction comprised of the most influential and powerful vampire nobles and families, they would be known as the Aristocracy of Domini. In this faction they would preserve the ways of old.

 

[mortal Offline]

Throughout the existence of vampires there have always been those on the fringe of society and those adopting a different way of unlife. Outcasts, hermits and nomads of their kind. Called barbarians for they never joined the First civilisation, they have always been looked down upon. They took a different path however, aside of conflicts they learnt to exist with their were learning to live with their condition. Through bloody rituals, shamanistic rites, communing with spirit realm or attunement with their inner monster. Some merely scavenged on the humanity, not caring about anything else. One thing bound them all however, survival. Individuals, groups or tribes were being hunted by civilised vampires in order to cleanse the vampire population of these unwanted black sheeps. Adaptation is a strong human trait lead to brilliance by vampires due to the dire need and instinct of self preservation and so these outcasts learnt to live on the move and in the shadows, away from the sight and detection of their intolerant relatives.

The spectrum of these vampires is wide and it comprises of many beliefs and philosophies and the history of these vampires is diverse with each group or individual. Although free of laws, some of them followed certain unwritten rules that loosely united them across the globe. Rules such as respect and support of each other in need. This was especially popular among gypsy vampires who wandered the Old World and preserved this lifestyle even in undeath. It often was that these barbaric vampires carried the tradition from their lives to their unlives and so they lasted through centuries. It is also thanks to that why even some vampires nowanights execute ancient rites of their pagan ancestors.

Not always it has been so ideallistic. Vampires are still predators with their inner struggle and while aside of conflicts of more civilised vampires even these outcasts fought with each other often with brutal savagery. Although on the fringe of society, they protected their territories as fiercely as any other vampire. Their nature had it though that respect for the territories of others was little to none and they often trespassed into domains of others. In time and in light of world events threatening the vampires’ existence they loosely adopted Dogma, often bending it to their own needs. The very way of their unlife often left them not only on the fringe of the vampiric society, but also on the verge of the remains of their humanity. Due to the nature of their condition they were forced to hide more than others as the loss of essence marked their visage greatly. Inquisition and Witch Hunts especially impacted those with low essence and enhanced this need. On the other hand, those who surived these times honed the art of infiltration and staying under cover to exceptional qualities.

Such talents didn’t remain unnoticed and the outcasts were often hired in secrecy by civilised vampires to serve their purposes. Little they knew that those who they hired kept working for themselves and so they got entangled in a plot greater than they devised. Information became an invaluable commodity that the outcasts collected. Knowledge has its price and they were those to determine the cost. Shady dealings and infiltration were their hallmarks.

In time working as solitary groups or even individuals against each other proved inconvenient, even dangerous. Other vampires formed great societies exploiting the divided outcasts. As the time passed and Sabbaths took their form one by one, it became obvious that divided the outcasts don’t stand a chance. And so, although unwillingly at first, the last of Sabbaths was formed. Vampires of Hort Packs soon realised the potential of their alliance and would harvest the fruit it brought. No more the outcasts would cover in shadows before the other mighty Sabbaths and each other, no they were equal and shadows became their domain.

…

Hort Packs are actually one of the most diverse Sabbaths in the Dogma universe. They unite all kinds of various vampires that don’t fall under other Sabbaths and have enough social spirit to work together towards a common goal. Loners, anarchists, lunatics, pagans, voodoo practitioners, atheists, you name it…simply everyone of all beliefs and philosophies who are willing to exist as a single society. Unless you really want to walk individual path, pursuing your own goals, you will find yourself a place in Hort Packs for certain.

[mortal Offline]

In every civilisation there have been pursuers of knowledge. Knowledge that would allow one to control the nature to do their bidding, whatever that would be, to heal a friend or bring harm to foes, to enrich oneself in material or spiritual way, or to seek immortality and power. In ancient times those were wise men and women of their tribes, later on then philosophs, astrologists, alchemists, but even various herbalists, quacks and empirics. Those men fortunate or perhaps unfortunate enough to encounter vampire kind and willing to cast their mortal lives away sought the dark gift to expand their possibilities and pursuit of knowledge. A great dilemma for those knowledgeable and it would divide them forever. Those to embrace the dark gift would become vampires, creatures of the night, forever struggling between the remains of their humanity and the inner monster lurking in the dark corners of their soul and those to reject the very possibilty of becoming such abominations to existence would preserve their humanity and some of them would become magi, men and women wielding supernatural powers achieved through thorough studies of the arcane. An ancient rivalry was born that would persist till present nights.

Those to embrace the dark gift would play but a supporting role to the nobility and religious leaders, often having to submit to their reign and forced to perform their researches in secrecy even before their own kind. Revealing such activities would be marked as herecy and transgressors would be put down. Secret guilds and organisations were formed, highly protected from spies and curious eyes and ears of both other vampires and human kind. There would be many vampires delving into dark studies, many vampires would seek knowledge through countless ways. Some would lead to dead ends and some would prove fruitful. Alligned guilds would share their findings with each other to enhance the research and opposing guilds would attempt to steal the secrets of their competitors. A dark line of blood and shadows would twine though the history until the time was ripe for change.

The change would come in the Industrial Revolution, when the power of reigning aristocracy would greatly diminish and the guilds could step openly in the game. Rivalry among the guilds would peak and only the mightiest would prevail. A monstrous organisation would arise from the ashes of the conflicts and it would slowly spread across the world, consuming and absorbing its lesser opponents as it grew in power. The organization would change many names and shift it’s structure as the time came by. The organisation would definitely earn its prime during the economic crisis of the Great Depression, when it would devise a sinister plan that would lead to World War II. The organization was then known as Cruor Corp and it would reach the world’s top through arms programme and medicine supplies provision. Effectively diminishing the influence of other similar organisations it established its position and maintain it for the time being.

…

That’s about it for the first idea I have about the origin of the four Sabbaths we officially know as of now. It is quite brief, but that way it offers a lot of space to expand to. It is in my opinion a way how these factions would stand and evolve in time, but more specific examples can be added to further support and build up this version should it be favoured by the devs and community. In this very example I hinted magi as they are one of the possible expansions in the future and they already seem to have their place within the Dogma universe. I hope you all like this and I will come up with more ideas as the time comes and allows.

Need to note though that it would be very nice to have some feedback and more opinions to further shape the lore and the course it takes. I like and enjoy the opinions of others and it all can be used during the creation process. For example @Eroszabi ‘s idea made to come up with an altered version of it and his post about Harbinger coven in Sabbath section brought me another idea that I hope to form in coming days. Very inspiring is  also @Mesalina ‘s Khufu’s example. The Timeless one would have been there in the time, when the mythical magician Dedi was present at Khufu’s court. They could be either the same person or The Timeless one could be a vampire and Dedi a representative of magi order at the time. An interesting confrontation and a promising piece of lore could stem from that.

[mortal Offline]

Thanks, I did some research on it before I started to write it.
I’ a big fan of things that fit together in a logical and realistic way.

I'm going out to get a bite to drink.

[mortal Offline]

So am I and I believe that it leads to high quality and credibility. Hope to see more of your insight.

[mortal Offline]

I wonder if you could make more Sabbaths covering other religions like Judahism, Islam, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc?

Also what about other political Sabbaths that covers rebellion like Anarchism/Communism/Socialism for example?

[mortal Offline]

BloodNight wrote:

I wonder if you could make more Sabbaths covering other religions like Judahism, Islam, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc? Also what about other political Sabbaths that covers rebellion like Anarchism/Communism/Socialism for example?

That concerned me a bit as well; but. Those of other belief than in the Maker or atheists as given the concept of unified Kindred society would be sort of rare and same would go for political thinking. This universe is set this way; as for the present at least. I would say though that these minorities are for major part ( if not all ) covered by Hort Packs. I do not personally see Hort Packs as mere grotesque monstrosities living on the edge of the society due to their low essence and criminal endeavors. I believe their spectrum to be quite rich and comprising of these minorities within the Kindred society as well. Too small to exist on their own, they formed this pathwork Sabbath in the light of other Sabbaths becoming too influential. Of course they have always been there to some extent, but it is in these modern times when being a big Sabbath gives you even more power above others.

I think these minorities being covered by Hort Packs gives it more to offer to various kind of “alternatively” thinking players as well. However there is still possibility to form an independent coven that could grow with the members of same thinking, sharing the same ideals. Or there also indeed could be more factions But there is one thing to consider. Eastern cultures do have their own myths and supernatural beings different than vampires. They could  either form their own factions with or without vampires or it could be that there simply are no vampires in these cultures as those supernaturals wouldn’t let them exist besides them. The thought of other supernaturals from different cultures gives more options for rare npc use. It would be interesting to encounter japanese Oni during a quest or to go to a shop run by a djinn or a stereotypical chinese evil store where an enigmatic elder sells a frogurt that carries a terrible curse.

[mortal Offline]

 

Sorrosyss wrote:

Players can increase their reputation within a Sabbath

I would encourage distancing yourselves from the term “Sabbath” when referring to something akin to Sects or Clans. It’s kind of a goofy use for the term. It would be more in line with something like an ‘Elysium’, I think. Some kind of gathering or meeting.

Ancient – A long lived Vampire, usually several centuries old.

“Ancient” isn’t several hundred years. It’s more like several thousand. I’d rather not see any ancient vampires directly in the game, but I’d certainly like them to have presence in the lore.

Neonate – A newly created Vampire.

A term for a newb vampire should be fairly easy to come up with. Perhaps avoid using a VtM term for this one?

Addict – A mortal human NPC who has become addicted to your blood.

I think something a little better could be used for Ghouls. Since I like the idea of Elders and Neonates using different terms, here’s my suggestion:

Elders could call them Vassals or Thralls.

Lore suggestion: Perhaps giving them blood could weaken them slightly, until they take it back. More blood = stronger ghoul. Renewing a ghoul could involve removing the blood from them and back into the vampire for a short time to restore it’s potency, then returning it.

Young bloods might use derogatory terms like Junkie, Slave, Leech or Clothead. But since their blood might be less potent resulting in weaker ghouls who still need to be emotionally conditioned, perhaps some affectionate slangs could be in order for the lighter hearted Kindred. Pet, Sip, Serf, etc.

Not having a common term for them might be a good way to detach from WoD a bit, too.

So, lets recap. This is a world where vampire society is in unity. There are no anarchs, no crazed Sabbat types.All acknowledge, and follow the laws of the Dogma.

I like the simplicity for starting out the game. Other sects could be added later, if deemed necessary, but going simple is a good idea.

We know they have existed since medieval times at their very oldest.

That’s kind of a short history. A bit more than 2000 years if you go back to the earliest era of the middle ages, I think. I’m cool with that, if that’s the way you guys are thinking.

I suppose the question rests on whether we are to again utilise the biblical origins.

There’s plenty of this already touched on, and honestly, it has the least of my interest, so I’ll be brief. Create a couple religious origin possibilities and leave it up in the air. Let players form their own beliefs.  Many vampires could attach themselves to Christian myth like VtM, but have other vampires from different parts of the world believe different things. Then have covens dedicated to more scientific research (even if the condition is undeniably supernatural).

We could use Dracula

There are other vampires in the Dracula universe (read: Dracula’s Guest, which also insinuates werewolves among many other creatures exist in it, too), with some mild suggestion that Dracula is not the first vampire. That being said, I’m not against him having a role in the lore.

The Big D is near and dear to my heart, though. Keep it classy, please? (eg, I’d prefer he met his Final Death in the book, as stated, and not serve as a quest-giver in Manhattan).

I’ll drop you a respectful idea I had for a character I was going to use in VtM or my own projects, who was tied to the Dracula universe. He’s a vampire that takes the form of a young child. Given his blood potency, age, unknown sire, and London origin, it is rumored (read: not confirmed or denied) that he is one of the children possibly sired by Lucy Westerna in 1890.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by  Deaden.

[mortal Offline]

Deaden wrote:

Sorrosyss wrote:

Players can increase their reputation within a Sabbath

“I would encourage distancing yourselves from the term “Sabbath” when referring to something akin to Sects or Clans. It’s kind of a goofy use for the term. It would be more in line with something like an ‘Elysium’, I think. Some kind of gathering or meeting.”

It is explained somewhere that the use of the term “Sabbath” stems from medieval Witches’ sabbaths that vampires adopted to adress their own gatherings during inquisition times. As such the use of the term doesn’t seem goofy at all and has its logic and tradition.

Ancient – A long lived Vampire, usually several centuries old.

““Ancient” isn’t several hundred years. It’s more like several thousand. I’d rather not see any ancient vampires directly in the game, but I’d certainly like them to have presence in the lore.”

I would agree in this point, a fitting term for centuries old vampire could be “Elder”. Such vampires are much more convenient to implement to a functioning society set in the present and it could be those on the top of the pyramid scheme, pulling the strings ( until perhaps a Kindred player replaces them in their role ). An Ancients though have their use even in game, certainly lorewise and perhaps there could be an Ancient in torpor as suggested by @Mesalina . Waking such a force could pose a serious threat depending on the nature of the Ancient and it would take a considerable effort to bring it down. It would certainly stirr the waters of the Kindred society, even a mere rumour.

Neonate – A newly created Vampire.

“A term for a newb vampire should be fairly easy to come up with. Perhaps avoid using a VtM term for this one?”

The term “neonate” comes from latin word “neonatus” for newborn. Latin being a langauge of the educated with its long history is a good source of terms for long existent society such as that of the Kindred. Alternative for “natus/nate” therefore “born” could be “vert – turned” as that is what happens to a mortal during the Embrace. To implicate a new status we could preserve the “new” and so we have “neovert”. Or we could incline to another language commonly used as a source for wide known terms and that is Greek. In that it would be “kainostreph” ( “kainos – new”, “streph – turned” ). That is how I would proceed with creating such terms.

Addict – A mortal human NPC who has become addicted to your blood.

“I think something a little better could be used for Ghouls. Since I like the idea of Elders and Neonates using different terms, here’s my suggestion: Elders could call them Vassals or Thralls. Lore suggestion: Perhaps giving them blood could weaken them slightly, until they take it back. More blood = stronger ghoul. Renewing a ghoul could involve removing the blood from them and back into the vampire for a short time to restore it’s potency, then returning it. Young bloods might use derogatory terms like Junkie, Slave, Leech or Clothead. But since their blood might be less potent resulting in weaker ghouls who still need to be emotionally conditioned, perhaps some affectionate slangs could be in order for the lighter hearted Kindred. Pet, Sip, Serf, etc. Not having a common term for them might be a good way to detach from WoD a bit, too.”

I like the other names you came up with for the Addicts and I think to have a common term is quite a necessity for a secret society, for both discretion in the open and also to simply be able to adress them. It is only natural to have terms for commonly used things.

So, lets recap. This is a world where vampire society is in unity. There are no anarchs, no crazed Sabbat types.All acknowledge, and follow the laws of the Dogma.

“I like the simplicity for starting out the game. Other sects could be added later, if deemed necessary, but going simple is a good idea.”

I agree, but I would see it as a necessity to add more diversity to the Society of Night. Perhaps some “old enemies” could resurface after some time, so it would not be necessary to have them at the start.

We know they have existed since medieval times at their very oldest.

“That’s kind of a short history. A bit more than 2000 years if you go back to the earliest era of the middle ages, I think. I’m cool with that, if that’s the way you guys are thinking.”

Personally, I think the older the better. Having the vampire kind go back to the roots of human race gives more chance for an interesting development over the history.

I suppose the question rests on whether we are to again utilise the biblical origins.

“There’s plenty of this already touched on, and honestly, it has the least of my interest, so I’ll be brief. Create a couple religious origin possibilities and leave it up in the air. Let players form their own beliefs. Many vampires could attach themselves to Christian myth like VtM, but have other vampires from different parts of the world believe different things. Then have covens dedicated to more scientific research (even if the condition is undeniably supernatural).”

As mentioned and suggested in previous posts, this seems to be a way to go. The Orthodox Theocracy will likely have a biblical version and there would be a couple others within different groups and individuals. For their development purposes, the devs would have their firm truth unrevealed to the community, thus leaving us speculating.

We could use Dracula

“There are other vampires in the Dracula universe (read: Dracula’s Guest, which also insinuates werewolves among many other creatures exist in it, too), with some mild suggestion that Dracula is not the first vampire. That being said, I’m not against him having a role in the lore. The Big D is near and dear to my heart, though. Keep it classy, please? (eg, I’d prefer he met his Final Death in the book, as stated, and not serve as a quest-giver in Manhattan). I’ll drop you a respectful idea I had for a character I was going to use in VtM or my own projects, who was tied to the Dracula universe. He’s a vampire that takes the form of a young child. Given his blood potency, age, unknown sire, and London origin, it is rumored (read: not confirmed or denied) that he is one of the children possibly sired by Lucy Westerna in 1890.”

 

The way Dracula is being depicted in Stoker’s book doesn’t quite fit with the way the vampires truly exist in the Dogma universe. More like it the actual Vlad Tepes ( as a vampire )  could intentionally mystify Bram Stoker, who was inspired by him, and so providing him with some incorrect information about Kindred. I would also very much avoid assigning him as a mere quest giver. I would go as far as having him take an enigmatic role, perhaps even hiding his identity only leaving uncertain clues to those he would become fond of. So while the Bram Stoker being still just a fiction, I would still keep your character’s idea possible as it still could have been based on real events, just with false information regarding vampiric life.

I am happy to see someone else contribute in this thread. Your insight is rather resourceful, I’d say.

[mortal Offline]

 

Lucifer was an angel, but not a very nice one…. You hear a lot about him, but what happened to the others?..

Vampire’s have debated their origins for years beyond memory. What we know is that there may have been one whom started it all, or several… but what we do know is that the fallen ones blood is said to be the source of our power…

In ancient times one or more mortals drank the blood of the fallen ones,  angels whom had been cast out during the great fall. What is known that Lucifer was cast into hell or so they say, while others despite what the church would tell you, were cast upon the earth.. The reveled in making themselves into new gods to defy the creator, thus religions sprout up in other parts of this world. To prove their power they would share blood with mortals, but unbeknownst to them it had a price.. Due to the act of drinking a fallen one’s blood, those whom consumed the cursed blood of the fallen became cursed as well, a vampire. These were the first ones of our kind.  For angels have no natural predator, save but one… God… It is this reason that the sun and holy items, effect us so.. 

If this legend is true, then it is our truth, if it is not, then it is not. What we do know is that wars among our kind waged over beliefs, and it is this reason that our Dogmatic laws were created. To bring peace among our kind, unify us, instead of divide us. As you go into this world, you will learn our laws. Heed them well,or suffer the down fall that comes with defiance… 

• This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by  King_Eric.

[pgf developer Offline]

A little speculation… We want to get away from the biblical themes.

Наша сила не только в когтях и живучести. Наша сила в свободе и чести.

[mortal Offline]

AiryKai wrote:

A little speculation… We want to get away from the biblical themes.

Thank you for the notice. I’ll come up with something else then.

[mortal Offline]

Well, what if… In ancient city of unknown name, upon which the Sumerian city of Ur was built, there was a matriarchal society lead by three sisters; Uanna, the eldest was a spiritual leader of their people and priestess of the sun deities revering the light and fire, Namtilla the middle sister lead the people in earthly matters and her wisdom was in ways of hunt and harvest, Namtar the youngest of them all was a priestess of night, cunning in secret knowledge and a judge in people’s disputes. Together they lead their people and they prospered.

One day a dark storm came upon the land and on its violent wings a demonic spirit Kizurra arrived. He tempted the three sisters to become his wives. First he aproached Uanna whom he promised glory, she denounced him claiming the glory dwells in light and not the darkness. Angry he cursed her saying she would lose what she held the dearest. Then he aproached Namtilla whom he promised bounty, she denounced him claiming the bounty comes from hard work and not words. Angry he cursed her saying her vitality would serve the death instead of life. Last she aproached Namtar whom he promised revelation and her desires fulfilled, she denounced him like her sisters, but remained silent. Kizurra looked into her soul and saw hesitation, he left her without a word.

Later he came to her again secretly under veil of night. There she succumbed to him for she desired to rule her people alone. He claimed her, but her soul couldn’t bear the weight of the demon’s essence her and so her life was ripped from her body and she went mad. Namtilla quickly arrived to her sister’s chambers to help as she heard her scream. There she witnessed the unholy communion and possesed Namtar ripped her throat in a fit of frenzy and sucked her blood to quench the dark thirst she felt and to consume the life she lost. With her last breath, Namtilla cursed her sister that she would always feel the hunger for the life she took and so her own curse came to be as her life served the death.Then arrived Uanna who beheld the terror and her sister dead, her curse fulfilled as it was her sisters who she held most dear. She cursed Namtar and banished her from the light. Never again she would walk the earth beneath the sun and the purifying flames of fire would repell her evil spirit. Before the guards arrived to arrest her, Kizurra gave Namtar wings of night and she fled from the palace. He himself then disappeared in a trail of darkness and was never heard of again.

Regaining her will, Namtar felt guilt for her sister’s death and swore to sate her thirst so she would never again fall to its rage. She became a creature of the night, preying on the living to sustain herself. She once met Urshar, outcast for a murder of a man. She felt alone and so she made him a one as herself. Together they would leave the land and settled far away from the city where she was born. They would found a new city, a new home where they could live without having to run or hide. From their accursed blood more of their kind would arise. So the first Kindgom of the Night came to be, its fate is a tale for another time.

[mortal Offline]

If you want to get a way from biblical themes, you could always go with witchcraft being what created the first vampire… You could also work this into a Dracula spin, or something completely different. After all, if you’re going to work witches into the story, the quest for immortality in ancient pagan times resulted in the first vampire..

You could keep it very vague, which would allow speculation, debates, and reasons the dogma was first drafted.

A young pagan warrior was slain during the christian purge. His mother/her mother, was a powerful witch, and sought to bring her son/daughter back to life. In violating the natural order of magical laws, her child came back as a vampire…

[mortal Offline]

So, I have been working around this Lore thread for a while and been thinking what to do with what we have here so far. The following text is the result of my contemplation.

No one nowanights to our knowledge knows about our true origin. There are vampires of old days who keep fragments of the knowledge passed onto them by their Sires, old records long lost. Those vampires of truly ancient origin and those who remember the truth met their final death long ago, lie forgotten in torpor somewhere or spend their damned lives in anonymity aside from the intrigues and schemes of their kind for it all lost its meaning compared to their eternal dilemma of immortality. The question of origin is a matter of speculations, fables, philosophical discussions and faith.

Some say we descend from Cain and that we bear his curse, the mark placed on him by Abrahamic God, him being our Maker who watches over us from the shadows. Some say it was Lilith who turned him for she consorted with demons and long lost her humanity and became something more. Some say it was one of her children or the Satan himself who lured a man into becoming one of his harbingers to wreak death upon the hated mankind. The biblical source rooted firm within the mankind and some brought their faith to their undeath with them.

There are however other legends saying otherwise…

Long ago, before our known civilisations such as Kemet or Mesopotamia, people lived in smaller communities revering divine spirits and demons, waging wars upon each other.  The deities would sometime take a human form to come to mortals and act as their divine rulers. Among them was Uanna, The Sunmother, great spirit of sun and fire, she was unlike the others and tried to unite people in peace and protected them from the horrors of the night. That was much to dismay of a demon Kizurra, who had profit from people’s conflicts. In secret he tricked seven tribe leaders setting them against her, claiming she was responsible for the scorching heat and draughts that caused famine so they wouldn’t grow more powerful than her. So during a feast in honor of the goddes they captured her and slain her. Kizurra then bade the leaders to drink her blood so her powers would come to them and they did so. Truly they became more powerful and achieved immortality, but the heinous act bore a terrible curse. Eternal hunger and damnation from the sun.
 Some say it was different and that the goddess Uanna bade the elders to fight Kizurra and they contained him within themselves through a summoning ritual. They could not contain the whole of the demon’s spirit though and became the damned. Others claim that Uanna was a mortal queen in an ancient city where Sumerian city of Ur was later built. There she supposedly ruled with her two sisters Namtilla and Namtar in peace until the demon Kizurra came to them, claiming the youngest as his wife ( as described in my story in a post above ) and yet another version of the story says that the spirit of Kizurra posessed Namtar who then gave birth to a child that served as a vessel for the demon who then turned others into vampires.

Yet another legend of old says that there was a demonic race living on Earth along with humans. Terrors of the night, monstrous creatures that sucked the blood of the living. Their hunger was so great they devoured even each other and as they did they grew in power. Eventually there was one who consumed the blood and souls of all his brethren and became the ultimate hunter of the living, an abomination a dark hungerer. He layed waste across the land and wiped half of the human population by himself, not even animals were safe from him and many became extinct to his hunger. As the fate has it an opportunity arises and the most unlikely ones become heroes. The demon was once ravaging a village again and kidnapped a woman Nuru, he would save her for later. Her brother Zuberi wouldn’t give up his sister easily though and although afraid, he tracked the demon to his den. Many bloodless corpses piled together with bones of the long deceased lied rotting there and the foul stench of death was discouraging the young hunter. The love for his sister was stronger though and so he helped her escape while the demon was asleep. Their attempt woke him up though and so he chased after them. In the chase Zuberi tripped and fell on the ground but he defended himself with his wooden spear upon which the demon impaled himself. Paralysed and unable to move he kept bleeding. Zuberi cut out his heart and ate it thinking he would gain the strength of the defeated demon. He did indeed, but the thousand souls of the demons merged into one overwhelmed him and he slain and drained his sister in bloodied frenzy. Thus the first vampire was born.

There were other theories claiming that vampires are their own species living among humans as their predatory subspecie, or that the vampire kind descends from an italian-born adventurer Ambrogio who was cursed by the god Apollon and some say the first vampire came from a ressurected son of an old Nguni witch. Whatever the truth is, not long after the birth of the vampire kind a first civilisation of both mortals and immortals was founded, but lasted only shortly due to inner conflicts and the Kindred spread in the world again. Whether it was a mere experiment or a serious ambition destined to fail, we don’t know. We only know that the Hunger that torments the damned expresses itself in many forms and often leads to inevitable doom.

There were many examples of hidden vampire societies or figures in the ancient time. Probably the oldest proved evidence goes back to Kemet kingdom ( now known as Egypt ) around 2566 BC during the Fourth dynasty and reign of the Great Pharaoh Khufu. Khufu aspired for immortality and so he invited a number of sorcerers to his court, among them Dedi, a commoner of powerful magical powers, one of the earliest Magi known in mortal’s history. A confiscated part of the Westcar Papyrus also describes an unknown ancient only refered to as “The Timeless one”. That part of the scroll tells that Dedi must have known the Timeless one from earlier and warned the pharaoh before him, but he didn’t listen and casted the magi out. The scrolls then speaks of “Nights of mourning” and many dead “drained of their blood”. Eventually the pharaoh died himself without ever reaching the immortality he sought and so with that the scroll ends and with it the trace of the Timeless one.

After that we have many archeological proves collected over the ages and kept away from the sight of the mortals. Some greatest revelations and secrets of the human history thus remained untold and safe with the Kindred.

I would like to thank all the contributing members for I tried to use the ideas of us all and merge them into one coalesced version. For those interested, if you remember my earlier post describing the lore behind the grotesque appearance of some low essence vampires and the Plaguebearers, read my short story published here on the sites called Plague of Athens. I hope to read more opinions here so we can storm our brains and lead a fruitful discussion as we have so far = )

• This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by  Somnio. Reason: Applying corrections

[mortal Offline]

I haven’t read everything in the thread, I’ll go back and read it all later when I have more time. But, here’s a few simple ideas regarding how each Sabbath could have their own theories to their own beliefs in their origins. And each Sabbath’s belief, of course, is influenced by their way of life. I think Somnio has the religious theories down pat with Orthodox.

For Cruor, since their power “lies in the ever-going research of blood magic (including its ritual and alchemical branches)”, their theories could be built upon the idea of how some experiment had gone wrong, and the outcome of vampirism was the result.

For the Domini, since they try to be, say like, more of the poster child for all vamps, to be a more beautiful image, or at least, that’s the sense I’m getting, their theories could be based on that. That there was a fountain of youth, and if drinking from it ever happened, a terrible outcome came of it, which was vampirism. [Like with Bram Stoker, Elizabeth Báthory influences this idea.]

For the Hort, since they are the beast-like ones, their theories could be a version of what a few others mentioned, like with the ideas of offspring from demons, say like the ideas of Gods like Zeus having sex with those he shouldn’t, and he finally forced some forbidden beautiful creature one day, and a vampiric baby was the outcome.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by  Deniveave.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by  Deniveave.

"What lies behind us, and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

[mortal Offline]

@featherreign It is always exciting to read ideas of someone else who gives regard and thought to the topic. Your ideas are refreshing and very resourceful. I personally like your idea of each Sabbath having their own beliefs and those examples you mentioned based on a logical background.

I soon have to set out, but when I am back I will react more accordingly. I indeed encourage you to read through the previous posts as you said and I hope to lead a rich discussion with you in the future = )

[mortal Offline]

idea – timeline memory based quest option especially for beginning to allow a rich background perhaps somewhat individualized this could be a means of character creation ect. and give future patches that will allow players to explore different eras as vampires. since age give strength this could also be used as a balance if u chose older your beginning skills are limits and often chosen for you but new vampire give more versatility and a faster in game start.

 finially i think a memories based system will give developers a chance to add background and history to the game in a unique way and a way that can be done gradually after the game is finished.

[mortal Offline]

Nothing prevents to exist in game to several myths about an origin of vampires. And each fraction can support this or that theory.