The Lore — Ideas, Theories and Story detail discussion

[moderator Offline]

Unlike the World of Darkness, we do not have decades of material to fall back on for lore purposes. As well as crafting the game universe, our dear developers also have to try and craft a compelling and interesting lore to the Dogma universe. So let us discuss it. Perhaps we can help them out with some ideas! Here is what we know so far, to quote myself;

The Dogma — Vampire society is unified, with a Dogma as their ruling set of laws to be upheld to maintain their superiority and link with humanity. If the Dogma of a city falls, it can have wide impacts such as increasing crime, mafia, law enforcement and military presence. Production, laboratories and contracts can also be affected. It is in the interest of all players to hold true to the Dogma.

Vampire society has four major organizations; The Hort Packs, The Cruor Corp, The Orthodox Theocracy, and the Domini Aristocracy. They are considered akin to political parties, but are not openly at war with each other. They will undermine each other though, through many means. Players can increase their reputation within a Sabbath and are free to join any, or choose to stay independent of them.

Vampire society has ranks, and as you rise through them you can eventually rule over entire cities.

Player actions and decisions will have consequences, affecting the history of the world as time progresses.

Coven — A group of Vampires, allied to a common goal. Your traditional MMO guild.

Kindred — The common descriptive term used amongst Vampires to describe themselves. The Vampire fights «The Beast» within them, the eternal hunger for blood.

Ancient — A long lived Vampire, usually several centuries old.

Neonate — A newly created Vampire.

Addict — A mortal human NPC who has become addicted to your blood.

So, lets recap. This is a world where vampire society is in unity. There are no anarchs, no crazed Sabbat types.All acknowledge, and follow the laws of the Dogma. Well, usually.

The four Sabbaths cover aspects of society pretty well;

Domini Aristocracy — Social / Human relations
Cruor Corp — Industry and Economics
Orthodox Theocracy — Religious and Spiritual matters
Hort Packs — Illicit and underground activities

Whatever your need as a Vampire, one of the Sabbaths is likely to be of aid to you.

But what of their origins? We know they have existed since medieval times at their very oldest. In VTM:Bloodlines, the Kindred very much accept Caine, as the first vampire and progenitor of the Vampire race. Yet here, we have the Theocracy preaching that The Maker created all Vampires.

I suppose the question rests on whether we are to again utilise the biblical origins. For example, what if we play around with the story a little. Here are some scenarios;

What if… In the tale of the original Adam and Eve, the apple was filled with the magical blood of the beast?

What if… The serpent, helped propogate the Vampire race — with the snake image being revered ever since?

What if… Cain killing Abel triggered The Maker to resurrect Abel — thus he, became the first Vampire? Would put a twist on the mark of Cain…

Of course, we do not need such an origin story, but to provide such a compelling back story to the Dogma universe, it would be nice to have a template point. We could use Dracula, as so many Vampire IPs do, which would give the middle ages as our starting point. But would this be too restrictive in terms of how many and how varied our Ancients would be?

Love to hear your ideas, or thoughts on the lore so far.

[mortal Offline]

Theocracy is preaching that, but im sure that some vampires are no thinking that. Like the Followers of Set, in game universe

will be sects who will worship other dark gods and goddess: Tezcatlipoca, Shalim, Kuk, Nyx, Nott, Rahu and others.

[mortal Offline]

                                                        Shattered Eye Society

200 years ago a group of humans tried to summon a interdimensional entity call Naz`gram, in their thirst for power and knowledge. When the entity apear, they offer their souls in exchange for acces to a another plaine of existence call Harkan Archives. In this dimension are stored information about everything and everyone from the past, present  and future. Naz`gram accepted their offering and show them how to acces this plaine. Even if the entity keep his word there was a cach. So much information cannot be precessed by human mind, and their minds begin little by little to… crack. In a few years they become mad . After years of madness few of them who aren`t so insane begin to observe that their become to age and start a searching for a solution. In that ocean of information they found a way to steal immortality from vampires. Using dark magic they steal the powers of a captured vampire and by using they also become vampires. 

 In modern times they hold huge libraries with thousands and thousands of nameless red books fill with random informations about anything: from future events to necromancy, from medicine and healing plants to sea creatures and religion.

 No one can find, by himself, what he is looking for in this mazes of shelves. If you want to find something in one of Society  libraries you must ask a librarian and do a favor for him. This favor can be anything: from a massage, to find his ruble duck toy or to bring him the eyes of a beautiful club dancer, depends on his fixations.

This faction don`t seem to care about the wars of others, only desire of this librarians is to learn and write all informations from Harkan Archives.

  All members of this faction are in one way or another insane: from suicide tendecies to schizofrenia. New members must do the same ritual and sell their soul to Naz`gram if they want to join. In exchange for his soul and mind a member can see throught the veil of reality in the future and at great distances .

They are mad but not like the malkavians (most of them), they are more like dr. Alistair Grout (VTMB) or dr. Walter Bishop (Fringe)

Opinions and grammatical mistakes.

[moderator Offline]

Come on people, lets hear more theories on the origin of the species. Speculate away!

[mortal Offline]

Well, here is a theory of vampire creation that was founded in my country (Greece), from the ancient times:

«The first vampire started out as not a vampire at all, but as a human man named Ambrogio.  He was an Italian-born adventurer who fate brought to Delphi, in Greece.  The story that follows, is in a nutshell. If you want the whole story, tell me…

Specifically, it began with the sun god Apollo, who in a fit of rage cursed Ambrogio so that his skin would burn should it ever touch sunlight again.  Ambrogio’s bad luck followed when he ended up gambling away his soul to Hades, the god of the underworld.  The next curse came via Apollo’s sister Artemis, the goddess of the moon and hunting, who made it so that Ambrogio’s skin would burn if he touched silver.

The blessings came soon after when Artemis, taking pity on the poor young man, gave him the gift of immortality.  He would carry his curses — his skin burning by sunlight or silver, but he would live forever in his current form.  Not only that, but Artemis also gave him the speed and strength to become a hunter whose skills were second only to her own.

Blood-sucking (which, by the way, is called «hematophagy» in case you were curious) is also included in this «blessing».  In the vampire origin story, Ambrogio hunts swans and uses their blood as ink to write love poems to his lady Selene.  While this may be considered a little creepy by our standards, it wasn’t all that unusual in ancient Greece to make do with what you hunted.

Ambrogio later moved back to Italy, now as a full-fledged vampire.  Legend traces him to the city of Florence (Firenze), where he creates the first Vampire Clan.

We don’t know a whole lot about this clan, other than they were most likely willing volunteers — humans who wanted power and immortality, and were willing to trade their souls for it.  It was believed that the curse would continue for any vampire where their souls would remain in the Underworld (aka Hades aka Hell), where they could return to claim them, but then could never leave.

From what we know of the history of vampires, the clan grew in size and strength, until infighting created something of a «civil war» within the clan, and many vampires left to form their own clans.

What happened to Ambrogio and those who stayed with him is largely unknown, though many believe that he still resides somewhere in Florence.»

[mortal Offline]

Mother Lilith, guardian of the tree of knowledge was the first of the vampires. She had the power to transform herself into a serpent, and had two sharp fangs that could drain the blood from any man. Her first victim was her husband Adam, from which she drew his blood every night. Yet she longed for more than mortal blood. She longed for the blood of a god. So she learned the secret name of the ruler, the sun god, giving her power over him. She tempted the sun god with her tantalizing flesh, and asked that he marry her, so the sun god allowed Lilith to travel between the realm of the living and gods to be together. And when Lilith came to drink from him, and so she gained the knowledge of all things. Weakened, the sun god banished Lilith and all her children from the light of the sun. Lilith was now married to the sun god, yet she could not look or touch him. So she traveled to visit the sun gods brother of the moon. And she asked that she drink his blood, he said that she may, but only when he was full and at his prime. And so they say that Lilith drinks the blood of the moon a half a month, and the other half was him reclaiming his strength. Which is represented as the waxing and waning of the moon. So the moon god gave Lilith four children. She gave these four children gifts from her. To her eldest, named Orthodox, she gave him her serpent eyes so that they may see through all lies, and gave him a white seed from the tree of knowledge. To her second eldest, Domini, she gave her beautiful glistening scales to entice foes, and a blooming red flower from the tree of knowledge. To her third eldest, Hort, she gave them her slithering shape so that they may hide and slip between shadows, and have them the brown bark from the tree of knowledge. Her youngest, Cruor was given her sharp fangs, so that he may bite and kill all foes, and gave them a black branch from the tree of knowledge. These four children were birthed in the spirit world, and were given the time to drink the blood of gods as their mother did. Yet when the sun god discovered that his wife had betrayed him with his brother, he banished his wife’s children to the world of the living, where they would create their own families from mortal blood, and live as immortal gods amongst the living. Forgive all misspellings and grammatical errors, I’m typing this on notepad in a doctors office

~Shadow is but the result of light.

[moderator Offline]

I like the use of Lilith as the original matriarch of the species. I know she has traditionally come from the more Jewish side of religious texts, but her back story is fascinating. They used her pretty cleverly in the True Blood TV show if anyone ever watched that.

In short to those unfamiliar, she was supposedly Adam’s original wife, and refusing to become subservient to him, she was banished from the Garden of Eden. I like the way you used the Sun God (akin to Ra), but I’d also suggest we could say that ‘in the beginning’ there was only the Garden of Eden. The rest of Earth was in pure darkness, and that is where she has reigned ever since.

Your idea with the named children is pretty fun, but to my knowledge the Sabbaths have only been around since the middle ages, and the industrial revolution for some of them.

Traditionally, Lilith was said to have had children with Samael (the angel of death — fitting!), whom is often identified as Satan. So that would give us a nice subplot for Demons too — if they are to be a faction in later expanaions.

 

[mortal Offline]

I found out about the Sabbaths and their creation only after I wrote this, so now I’m kinda annoyed that I didn’t study the Sabbaths enough beforehand. But I like the idea of Lilith birthing demons, I completely forgot about that piece of her lore. Perhaps vampires are merely mortal bodies infused with the immortal essence of a demon birthed from the mother vampire? I also remember there being an alternative version of Lilith in Babylonian mythology, which seems more fitting for the vampire mythos in my opinion.

~Shadow is but the result of light.

[mortal Offline]

What if…

Our origin story has been lost in time. Sparse records go back as early as ancient Egypt but that is where the lead stops. Kindred scholars have been searching for our origin story for millennia but the trail just stopped at one point. Even to this day kindred society is still searching but they have only been met by dead leads and disappointment. The Orthodox Theocracy has their own view on history but no definite proof has ever been brought into the light. (no pun intended)

What is known so far?

Somewhere around the year 2566 BC (fourth dynasty) around the death of the great Pharaoh Khufu.
Khufu was obsessed with resurrection and eternal life that he had searched the known world for a sorcerer that could help him attain his dream. Records say he actually found one which he called the «Timeless one» for he supposedly did not age. Around the time the sorcerer was at the pharaoh’s court records speak of a period of mourning for many men and women were found dead and drained of all blood. In the end Khufu died and did not attain his desired eternal life and there was no mention about the «Timeless one» anymore. One thing is for sure, the «Timeless one» must have been pretty old by the time he was at Khufu’s court.

Fast forward.

Millenia passed and history occasionally threw up references of vampiric beings up until the present. The powerful vampires of old are no more. We don’t have antediluvian or whatever the Dogma alternative would be called. We do however have rumors that there might be some very old vampires still in deep torpor somewhere and we also have rumors that one sabbath might actually know where one is, they might be even harboring one, guarding it.

Closing words.

It’s always awesome to keep a lot of information vague and mysterious. Not every question requires an answer.
This way it allows for nearly endless possibilities and expansion, if you have a set origin you’re kinda stuck with it.

I'm going out to get a bite to drink.

[mortal Offline]

I like @Mesalina ‘s idea. More lore for me.

[mortal Offline]

I like Mesalina’s idea for game play purposes however I do feel lore should actually have a general idea for a back story of vampire history even if no one alive knows it.  Personally I prefer an evolutionary approach pulling from nature.  There is a spider that lives in ant colony’s pretending to be an ant that feeds off ants.  What if vampires are humans version of the Spider.  It can go that ancient civilization that were wipe out were because the human to vampire population grew too large to support the vampires.  This would also lead vampires to having to control their own family size to not over hunt humanity thus the laws and rules that do not appear to make since but are strongly enforced about creating new vampires.  Human vampire creations would be people who were transformed into this new species by draining their blood while filling their body with the vampire blood.  It acts as a catalyst and transforms their body into the new species but at a slower rate and that is where the aging make them stronger as the changes happen over time.  The original species could have either died out or works from the shadows overseeing its offspring species.  Addicts are healthy people whose body was not drained to the point of death of human blood thus it fights against the infection of the new blood.  Granting them some power but not the full power and wears off in time as the infected new blood is fought off by the immune system and the internal changes are viewed as part of infection and the body kills it off.  

With this history you need biological reasons for certain weaknesses and strengths.  I will start with weaknesses.  Garlic and silver are poisonous to vampiric blood thus weakening the vampire.  Now the sun presents an issue with this as what species could survive evolution without the ability to go out during the day.  I would play that sun only effects people drastically during the transformation process (which take multiple millenniums to complete) but once it is completed it is only an irritant not deadly as they no longer have the human part fighting against the vampire part so the body is now working as one organism instead of two fighting for control.  For game play purposes I would make the allergy to garlic and silver stronger as the vampires age and less human resistance applies.  
Also for game play I would make it where true born vampires are always NPC and they hide who they are religiously.  The may pretend to be human created but they know the truth as they were raised into it and they are basically day walkers.  
Biological reasons for strengths:  Any physical stats could be summed up in the difference between the species like spiders to ants.  Intelligence bonuses are merely because stupid vampires are killed off because they are too dangerous to the family units.  Beauty and charisma are going to be necessary to any species that is hiding in another species to deflect concern when people start disappearing.  Their bite has a venom that lulls the prey in a calm/suggestible state and wipes recent memory and their saliva/or blood jump starts healing process but is then fought off like an invader leaving humans tired and sickly while the body fights it off but with no physical signs of the attack.  

Now for history:  Their first and only civilization goes back to Atlantis.  It was an island home that they ruled.  Their laws on creation did not exist at the time and their population exploded.  They advanced technology and research to a point unseen as they had eternity to test their theories.  But they overpopulated and after a major disease struck their human food supply that they kept as cattle starvation set in.  The city was sunk in a night.  Not from an ocean of water but and ocean of blood.  The survivors left the city and went separate ways so as not to overpopulate again.  Some went northward and became the druids of old.  Feeding off humans secretly.  Some went east and fed causally with little fear becaming the stories of Oni.  Some crossed the great oceans using their great power to pretend to be Gods and requesting blood sacrifices.  Those that stayed central created variations of all those systems.  From the slave killing magi of Egypt, the God Emporers of the Persians and their human sacrifices, to the monsters of Grecian myth that killed any humans who got too close.  
As the centuries passed the vampire families that killed without fear of repercussions were all but wiped out by human heroes and the hidden families that funded the expeditions.  The only vampires clans to survive until today are those that chose pull the strings from the shadows as their survival required the wiping out of the «loud mouths» who would get them ALL killed.  

[mortal Offline]

I incline to Lilith being the one behind the origin of the vampires. She supposedly also had many children with Adam, before leaving Eden. When she recognised he would never treat her as equal, she decided to leave for good. What if she bore one last child she had with Adam, a child that without the grace of Eden was born dead and his mother Lilith mourned for him. However, Satan in guise of snake came to her and breathed unlife into the child, who then became the first vampire. Lilith is also known to kill infants, which could stem from her child dying after her departure from Eden and have connotation with this fable. After the God sent his three angels to bring her back, they found her by the Red Sea consorting with demons and refusing to return, thus being banished. What if her «fondness» of demons originated from her experience with Satan who ressurected her child. There are ways to back this up, like just mentioned above with possibilities to further develop the story, which I would gladly do. I agree that the lore should be firmly set as a sort of foundation stone so it can be built upon, even though it actually remains a mystery to actual vampires of today and not even all ancients would be sure. The vampire kind being so old would mean they cast their influence over humankind since it’s creation. That offers space for development and discovery, which is a lot of fun. Myth and legends, but even actual historic facts and figures offer great material for artificial history, alternate explanations or conspiracy theories. Lore based on the culture we know makes it all the more believable and easy to identify with. A couple of examples be Count Dracula as described in WoD, plague in various adaptations as a tool to conceal vampire-caused deaths in big numbers, Great New Orleans Fire accidentally caused by Louis in defense against Lestat in Interview with the vampire. Much more can be made up when searching for suitable material. This is but a guideline, but it has a potential for great results. I will try to come up with something more soon as creative work is my field and this project is something I very much like to see and would like to contribute to.

• Этот ответ был изменен 1 год, 9 месяцев назад от  Somnio.
• Этот ответ был изменен 1 год, 9 месяцев назад от  Somnio.
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[mortal Offline]

I like @Mesalina and @locksheer ideas, as opposed to a biblical origin. I think Lilith and Caine have been overused. Let the Orthodox Theocracy believe whatever they want, but don’t make that the only truth. 

Maybe each faction could have their own theories?

[mortal Offline]

Incarna wrote:

I like @Mesalina and @locksheer ideas, as opposed to a biblical origin. I think Lilith and Caine have been overused. Let the Orthodox Theocracy believe whatever they want, but don’t make that the only truth. Maybe each faction could have their own theories?

I understand this point of view, although myself, I don’t see it as an obstacle. In many genres there is a repeating pattern, that despite being old and familiar still has a new ways of interpretation. Sometimes it is even sought after because it remains faithful to such concept while it still offers a different aproach and new ideas tied to it.

I still favour the concept of the single truth however, as it is easier to build upon and expand. I do repeat though, that in no way «the truth» has to be openly revealed to the community. It is good for the devs to know what they can work with, but for the sake of entertainment it is good to maintain a certain mystery around the lore so there is an opportunity for the player community to explore and discover. Knowing their lore and having it set at least fundamentaly, provides the devs with material they can expand over time.

I very much like the «Let the Orthodox Theocracy believe whatever they want.» There is a thought behind it I had on mind when I wrote my first post on the topic. It settles well with the idea of multiple beliefs, which I consider diverse and close to how things work. While the Orthodox Theocracy holds a certain monopoly over the belief in the vampire society, they may still not know for certain. While in some points they may be very close to the truth and in others they are even correct, in others they may be misleading, far away from the truth, fabricating to manipulate or outright wrong. But in either case the player wouldn’t know which is which. The ones who would know the truth would possibly be the first vampire or the first generation, but even they could be uncertain of the truth of their origin. Besides, they may be long dead, in torpor somewhere, lost in the ancient history. Having the lore going as far back as to the very beginning simply offers so much opportunity.

In regard to factions having their own beliefs each, by all means yes. Again, while the Orthodox Theocracy’s teachings represent the belief of a majority among vampires in this universe, I can well imagine some part of the Aristocracy of the Domini having an atheistic aproach, while Hort Packs could be more heathen based, shamanistic, voodoo oriented and such. Aside of that some vampires may believe in a different deity completely, other than the Maker is, or even an entire pantheon, or be ancestor based. Although the vampire society is in a seeming unity under the Dogma ( which even most of the independent and solitaire vampires would adhear to for survival at least to some extent ) and is vastly outnumbered by mortal population, it still is numerous and as such, diversity is unavoidable. Different philosophies appear in every culture and even within those philosophies, individuals evolve and bring new thought currents. I can see vampires to form sects and death cults, covens that grow and evolve over time so they may even match a faction in their size ( where a player is given freedom in their choices, anything is possible to a certain extent ). While still likely considerably minor to general and commonly upheld belief of the Orthodox Theocracy, diversity should be given space.

[mortal Offline]

The lore isn’t solely just about the question of the origin of the vampire race however. Although I still remain unaware of the variety in kinds of vampires in Dogma universe, I’ve noticed a picture of a Nosferatu-like vampire. It raises a question: Why are they different from the other human-looking vampires?

It could be that long in the past a single vampire or a group of vampires were cursed for their behaviour or a significant deed or crime by either the first vampire himself/herself, a vampire from an earlier generation, a powerful magi or their assembly or another supernatural entity of great power. A curse to mark them for what they’ve done.

Nosferatu are commonly aligned with sewers and rats and that brings plagues to mind. In 430 BC during the second year of Peloponnesian War there was a severe epidemic outbreak known as the Plague of Athens. Defenders of Athens still held a chance to be victorious, however the plague turned the scales from their favour and meant their doom. It could be that some vampire or a group of them made use of it for a mass killing to sate their unquenchable thirst. Or perhaps they fabricated the epidemic themselves for the purpose. The victims’ bodies would not be further examined for the fear of the disease.
Besides that, it could have another reason than just concealment of the mass feed. It could be that the feeding just served as supplies in a greater conflict where two factions fought each other and one could perhaps even become extinct in the outcome. In such conflict a lot of power would be spent and a lot of blood would be needed to maintain the onslaught. A plague as a tool of concealing vampiric presence in such measure would be more than convenient.
However, the very usage of such tool could be seen as very unclean. Infiltration of the plague, direct contact with it, perhaps feeding on the infested themselves, the concept itself especially in use against another vampire or vampires could be seen as a heinous deed deserving punishment. Hence the curse.

A less supernatural reason, while using the same background, could be evolutionary. By using this tactic, as the consequences of vampire’s action affect them. A certain con in this is however, that it would probably need to be repeated and overextensive use of such demeanor to take effect. Also the behaviour of vampires adjusts throughout the time, so evolution in this case could alter vampires back to their original state or they would need to maintain such behaviour and that would be somewhat limiting in the gameplay. Should the reason not be supernatural but evolutionary, it would require something significant and vastly different from the rest of the vampire society. Every vampire ( or most of them ) found themselves in extensive need for animal blood, seeking hideout in the darkness ( suitable in unclean places in human vicinity but avoided by them on regular basis ) or in dire cases, in need for infested blood, especially in ancient and medieval times.

Personally, I incline to the supernatural.

All this could be applied to a different major epidemic throughout the human history, depending on when the lore for vampires starts. I consider lore going deeper in the past more interesting and offering more opportunities for creativity and mystery and so I used an example from the Ancient Greece.

Next I would like to focus on the factions now, their background and the factions before them as that provides some interesting material and is aimed on something already set firmly in the Dogma universe.

Need to add that I intend to keep these posts on the plane of ideas and suggestions, as the final result chosen by the Devs may be different. Although I would very much enjoy putting it in a literary shape, but that is simply pointless in this stage.

[moderator Offline]

The Nosferatu look that you mention primarily comes about from when a Vampire is running low on essence (humanity). This can apply to any Vampire, in any faction. However, the Hort are primarily drifters and deal with illegal activities. Of the four existing factions, the members of the Hort Packs will primarily have the beast like appearance out of shared necessity due to their activities, but also as it is an accepted state by the faction as they struggle to survive on whatever they can find. They live in the shadows and the fringes of the city, hence another reason why they hide away.

I like the above ideas about keeping the ancient lore vague. There is a similar set up in the Assassin’s Creed games where humanity is supposedly created by a high tech First Civilization in our ancient past. If we were to apply the similar idea here, that there was some ancient Vampire culture that spread across the world, we can leave hints and teases as to their existence. For example, the Orthodox Theocracy are known for collecting ancient artifacts. They may well preach about Kindred existance being owed to the Maker, but the dark reality may be somewhat different. As suggested, rumours of an ancient progenitor could spark rumours and possibly rival cults or indeed factions down the line.

Interesting ideas coming in this thread, keep them coming folks.

[mortal Offline]

Interesting. That would sort of fit the second explanation, which does result from consequences of vampire’s action ( in this case the plague, so perhaps it could have been an ancient predecessor to those like in the Hort Packs ). Thank you for the feedback as it hints the direction where to go, I will certainly apply it in coming posts, namely the one about factions.

I like the idea of an ancient vampire civilisation, perhaps first few generations or formed later and then shattering to pieces and scattering the vampires throughout the world to settle among humans and form smaller factions and lineages of which some would become extinct in the ongoing conflicts between each other. Conflicts that would continue in various ways and intensities ( perhaps reflecting in historical events ) until the relative peace and forming of the four factions we know nowanights.

[mortal Offline]

Let’s think of the Orthodox Theocracy. Wherever in time the origin and the Maker is set, the belief of this Sabbath is refering to it. That would indicate a very old lineage which dates to the very beginning of vampire race. At it’s birth, the first few generations knew who their Maker was and they revered him. They could have formed the first civilization where vampires reigned supreme. After some conflict ( external or internal ) this civilzation shattered and vampires set out all directions. Some groups could maintain the belief in the Maker in more or less the same way, some could alter their teachings completely and some would decide to worship a different deity.

In those ancient times, there were many beliefs and those who sired could die before passing their knowledge onto their progeny. That could lead to the vampiric orphans to stick with their original faith they had as mortals, some could even consider themselves to be a smaller god. Either way, after the first unified civilization, there were many other sects, death cults and followers of various deities besides the fractured worshippers of the Maker.

Religious conflicts would occur throughout the time and in those conflicts some groups would become extinct and some would prevail. With the immortality of the vampire kind perhaps even some very ancient cults may still exist as of today, hiding in  shadows from the inquisition of the Orthodox Theocracy. Believers of the Maker certainly were one of those who survived through all those conflicts. Evolving through its early stages they became a solid faith among the majority of vampires. There could have been prophets and revered figures then who layed the foundations and spread the teachings. The organization would change structure and face many perils both internal and external. In some conflicts, old texts or relics could have been lost or destroyed, which would conceal formerly known truth in mystery. What used to be a fact then relied on faith of its believers.

At all its stages believers of the Maker would encounter mortals and their religious structures. They would find these to be resourceful for their own designs. They would parasite on religions of various civilizations in their prime. But closest bonds they would have with jews and christians as their own faith shares its origin. The most resourceful organisation would then become the Roman-Catholic Church. The structure of the Orthodox Theocracy as we know it today would gain its form in the Middle Ages and would slowly evolve into what it is now.

This is but a brief stub that provide a backbone to build upon. Basically it says that Orthodox Theocracy has always been there in one way or another. What truly survived from the ancient times is perhaps known by the innermost circle only and is kept in secret.

[mortal Offline]

To expand and edit my origin story a bit. The child Lilith had could have been a girl named Idumai ( or variations of root idom/edom ) derived from hebrew word for red as she was born in blood and her kind would later consume blood as well. The one to ressurect her child would be The Maker, a powerful and enigmatic entity of divine origin. It would be better for lore purposes should it be based around Lilith that it would be her daughter who was the progenitor of the vampire kind. And it would also be nice to have a female to be the progenitor to stand in opposition to all those male figures there tend to be. Lilith could play this role in this story as she was said to give birth to many other demons with Samael ( which could be used for demon based expansion ). The demons Lilith had could have even been a part of the first vampiric civilization before it ended.

[mortal Offline]

Something I find interesting (in books, movies and even in some games) is that there isn’t really a defined history or lore, that there’s nothing certain about what you read or hear.

It’s something that I believe would be interesting in-game as well. Imagine two vampire scholar (roleplayers or whatnot) discussing or debating over the origin of the vampires, lets say for example that one says it is from Lilith BUT the other vampire says it is from, lets say from god?

The most interesting I think would be that there is no define answer to this question, that we as players can decide what we want to believe and in that case what our vampire characters wants to believe.

So I think that everything should be theories — especially when it comes to the origin of the vampires.

[mortal Offline]

I understand that point of view and I again say that I do agree. We as players, shouldn’t be given a definite answer, it would be for the best if that was kept as a mystery, a matter of personal belief. But again, the creators of the story should define something for themselves to build upon. It could be that in this thread defining the origin ruins that purpose, because the community would then see what it is. Being put like this, it would prove more helpful if there were more of these possible explanations that would be presented in the game through npc’s and players alike ( but perhaps that could mark you as a heretic to the Orthodox Theocracy ). When it comes to the origin at least.

I like your example of the two vampire scholars debating, it is quite an exciting thought and it would be actually nice to have it in game. It could be a fruitful debate and exciting experience.

I’m mainly trying to come up with something that would suit the Orthodox Theocracy, because they claim to know and they hold monopoly over religion in the vampire society as it is now.

I know that it is said that the vampire society is in unity ( however fragile it is and however competitive the four factions are between each other. ) and there is a certain peace, but personally I miss some kind of antagonist to pose a threat to this. It is why I propose the idea of some death cults at least, even if small. Or maybe a group of players forming their own Sabbath ( that would probably be very demanding on rp ). It would spark a great conflict and surely make things interesting. The four factions fighting this threat while keeping undermining each other in order to gain a better position.

[moderator Offline]

Well, the antagonists are naturally going to be the other races eventually, such as the Werewolves. But in terms of an NPC threat within Vampire circles, that could be interesting.

In the classic World of Darkness we had the Sabbat and the Anarchs that were constant rivals to the Camarilla. Whomever this threat is in Dogma, they really have to go against the idea of the Dogma and what it stands for. The obvious answer is Vampires that have embraced the beast within, and living on the edge of their essence. In that sense, a cult dedicated to death itself would fit, as they would likely run around the city on killing sprees purely out of principle. If this was tied into Live Events, we could have players dispatched to try and prevent any such sacrifices taking place, and of course stop drawing attention from the varied mortal authorities.

[mortal Offline]

I consider Dogma as a tool for a vampire for survival in mortal society, mainly the need of keeping the vampire identity in secret. As you say, someone who would go against it, that could perhaps be someone who considers mortal to be greatly inferior and should serve to vampires in whatever way they see fit and not having to hide it. I would still see them to be a bit reasonable, or cunning at least, to realise it is not so easily achieved in the current situation. Cruelty, cunning and desire for power, all that in monstrous measure would likely be their hallmarks.

But yes, I meant within the vampiric society. The natural antagonist to come would be werewolves and vampire hunters. I had someone purely dark and sinister to be among vampires on mind.

The idea of live event seems brilliant and it could perhaps be even lasting for an extended period of time, until the threat is dealt with or at least greatly hindered before it may occur again.

[mortal Offline]

Oh I can’t already wait until I can roam as a werewolf but until then.

«I’m mainly trying to come up with something that would suit the Orthodox Theocracy, because they claim to know and they hold monopoly over religion in the vampire society as it is now.»

Yeah! which is awesome but what they claim might be something for the purpose of control, religion can be a wonderful tool to control the mind, by the way I like the stuff you have come up with so far Somnio

[mortal Offline]

I like the way you think, Malkev. It indeed is and for a kind as manipulative and scheming as vampires are, it is a dangerous tool even. Whole concept of the Orthodox Theocracy is really strong and has firm foundation resulting in a very powerful faction. I’m very much looking forward to come up with something else for other Sabbaths as well and expand it. I enjoy the lore aspect in games and in general very much, so I find it exciting that I may contribute.

On a side note, I could picture the relations between the Sabbaths would not be all black and white. Some could find an easier way to one another. In case of the Orthodox Theocracy, I could imagine they might see a potential ally in Aristocracy of the Domini. Religion and Aristocracy had always had a tight ally/rival relationship, so something similar could be presented here. Cruor Corp seems to stand in certain opposition to them, both in their technical approach and use of magic rivalry. The relations there would be pretty cold and strict I imagine. And Hort Packs, those could likely be viewed as pagans and with their infiltrative nature, they perhaps know a lot of dirt on the Orthodox Theocrasy ( not much to their liking ). So while manly negative, they could still require the skill Hort Packs have to offer. And after all, obedient sheeps can be found anywhere.

I would propose the Orthodox Theocracy to be the oldest stable faction of them all, so they would know how to maintain their position well among the others.